Discussion:
[Menai-LUG] Meeting/event - notes from the meeting
Kevin Donnelly
2007-04-04 20:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for the delay in posting these - some home stuff intervened.

We had the meeting on Thursday, in Wetherspoon's - present were Phil Baker,
Liam Kurnos, Gordon Ross, Richard Smedley, Phil Thane, and myself. We went
over a summary of the previous discussion on the list, and had a very
agreeable couple of hours. I've combined the comments and suggestions from
that with a few more suggestions from myself on the way forward.

Name and strapline for the event:
We didn't discuss the name in detail, but I'm now going to suggest Flourish
(Ffynnu in Welsh), perhaps with "Choose Freedom" added - comments welcome.
The strapline, using suggestions from the meeting, might then be something
like: "Solve your business computing needs affordably and sustainably using
adaptable (versatile?) free (GPL) software". Again, comments welcome.

Partner organisations:
A variety of these were suggested, but I think I need to have a fairly
clearly-defined programme in mind before I approach them. I would plan to
start doing that in May. M6-IT has kindly offered to host a "computer club"
on the day.

Costs:
These are such that breakeven would only come with around 170 participants,
although the breakeven would be lower if presenters do not take up the full
amount allocated for expenses. It is unlikely that we can attract this
number (although I have no hard info to support that), so I will need to try
and get sponsorship/support for about 50% of the cost.

Dates:
We decided on a Friday - 12 or 19 or 26 October. All are free at the minute.
The next best day would probably be a Tuesday.

Pricing:
We agreed a price of ?40, with reductions for early booking. As Richard
pointed out, though, the real price is the cost of someone being away from
work for a day.

Installs:
We decided this would be too complex to do on the day, and that giving out
Knoppix or Ubuntu CDs would be better. This could be backed up by having
running demos of booting a LiveCD on various pieces of hardware.

Pilot project:
We agreed this would be too complex to run, so that idea is shelved.

Programme:
Most of the meeting was taken up with discussing the programme. The key
question was "who is this aimed at?" Most SMEs will not have a resident
geek/tech bod, so going into various pieces of software in depth may not make
much sense to them. On the other hand, just telling people this sort of
software is available without showing them how to set it up or seeing it in
use is of limited practical benefit to them. It's a question of what we can
explain sensibly in a given time to a given level of expertise.

It's difficult to square this circle, and one suggestion was to keep the
business track fairly general, and have a separate technical track for people
who want to get into the details a bit more. One track might then be shared
(a half-track) between social enterprises and education. The problem about
expanding too much is that the possible costs for speakers also rise.

Another issue that came up was the need to have people up to speed on teh
jargon (eg proprietary, GPL, FSF, distro, repository, etc). Rather than have
a presentation on all this, the best thing would probably be to have
shortish, simple factsheets on the website (along the lines of the briefing
sheet series being developed by Richard Smedley's company, M6-IT), so that
people can at least get used to the terminology beforehand.

Another point was that for consistency it might be better to choose one distro
for all the presentations, so that newcomers don't get too twitchy when they
see four or five different-looking desktops. The problem here is, which
distro do you choose? The earlier point, that we should standardise on
Ubuntu+GNOME and openSUSE+KDE, may be valid, and that would allow both to be
used in the presentations - that shouldn't be too confusing for the average
viewer.

So an initial programme (subject to cost concerns!) might look like this:

=Plenary session=
- Introduction
- Keynote - Perhaps someone from FSFE? Covering what free software is, why
software patents are bad for business, why open formats are vital, how the
flexibility of free software gives a competitive edge and feeds into
bottom-line benefits, etc

=Business track=
- Getting your bearings - practical implications of the free software outlook,
security implications, etc
- Basic office tasks - email, web, word-processing
- Collaboration in the office - using groupware and other CRM software, wikis,
etc
- Remote working - using a VPN to take your office with you
- Expanding your website - using content management systems, e-commerce, etc
- Business necessities - payroll (eg Thyme), accounts (eg GnuCash)
- Tying it together - using a Linux file/print/proxy/mail server in a
non-Linux network

=Technical track=
- Start here - installing and running Linux
- Setting up Linux file/print/proxy/mail servers (several sessions)
- Setting up a VPN
- Linux for network security (Gordon Ross?)
- Support - an overview of sources

=Social enterprise half-track=
- The ethics of free software - social responsibility, social exclusion, etc
- Moving to free software - what is involved, where are the pressure points
- Perhaps repeat some of the subjects from the business track, boiled down a
bit? And/or offer hands-on experience in teh computer club?

=Education half-track= (actually, this looks more like a full track)
- Flexibility and savings - a case-study (Powys? Handsworth?)
- Not more IT! - Linux for beginners for a teacher's viewpoint (Phil Thane?)
- Overview of relevant software - software specifically aimed at, or useable
in, the curriculum, and management software like Schooltool (giving existing
shortcomings where appropriate)
- Distance learning - Moodle
- INGOTS - an open IT qualification
- Taming your library - Koha
- Out of the Box - Karoshi

=Welsh track= (or perhaps a half-track?)
- Why free software supports Welsh better
- Doing it yourself - how to convert a program to Welsh (KD?)
- Office software in Welsh (Agored?)
- The cutting edge - lexical resources, text-to-speech, etc (Canolfan Bedwyr?)

=Plenary session=
- Q&A session with panel
- Wrap-up

Any comments on the above would be very welcome.

I was also wondering about whether we should look for a VIP to launch the
event (ie before the keynote). The question is, who?

Recording:
We decided that streaming would be too difficult and expensive (unless we
could partner with a college multimedia unit where the students wanted/needed
to do a practical), but it would be worth trying to record at least some of
the presentations for delivery via the website later. It was also suggested
that we circulate a Flickr tag, so that if people want to upload pictures,
they can be grouped in one place.

I think that's about all! The next step, after any further suggestions, would
be to start working up a website, as a basis for further planning. The draft
timetable afterwards would be: website and approaches to speakers by
end-April; presentation summaries and approaches to potential partner
organisations by end-May; approaches to potential sponsors by end-June; first
publicity ads and opening of registrations in July; presentation drafts by
end-August; further monthly publicity August-September; finalise event
details by end-September; weekly publicity in October.

Any offers of (non-financial) help are always welcome, eg help on the day, a
presentation you could give, someone you know who might be a partner or
sponsor, contacts in the media, etc etc.
--
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.klebran.org.uk - Gwirydd gramadeg rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
Eion MacDonald
2007-04-06 12:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Companies free/open software - applications
limitations come in problem of VAT accounting.
GnuCash /Kmymoney/Grisbi can do personal accounts.
Only free software that does my VAT accounts correctly is the java lazy8
add onto to jEdit.
It works and keeps duplicate to my Windows set up with QuickBooks Pro
(2004 old version)
However lazy 8 is not so easy to use without book keeping basic for
double entry set up.
(QuickBooks removes that worry, at a price)

Will you cover this in your applications point.
(VAT accounting, it is major reason I still dual boot to Windows!)

Regards
Eion MacDonald (***@btinternet.com)
Tel. +44 (0) 1925762873
Post by Kevin Donnelly
Sorry for the delay in posting these - some home stuff intervened.
We had the meeting on Thursday, in Wetherspoon's - present were Phil Baker,
Liam Kurnos, Gordon Ross, Richard Smedley, Phil Thane, and myself. We went
over a summary of the previous discussion on the list, and had a very
agreeable couple of hours. I've combined the comments and suggestions from
that with a few more suggestions from myself on the way forward.
We didn't discuss the name in detail, but I'm now going to suggest Flourish
(Ffynnu in Welsh), perhaps with "Choose Freedom" added - comments welcome.
The strapline, using suggestions from the meeting, might then be something
like: "Solve your business computing needs affordably and sustainably using
adaptable (versatile?) free (GPL) software". Again, comments welcome.
A variety of these were suggested, but I think I need to have a fairly
clearly-defined programme in mind before I approach them. I would plan to
start doing that in May. M6-IT has kindly offered to host a "computer club"
on the day.
These are such that breakeven would only come with around 170 participants,
although the breakeven would be lower if presenters do not take up the full
amount allocated for expenses. It is unlikely that we can attract this
number (although I have no hard info to support that), so I will need to try
and get sponsorship/support for about 50% of the cost.
We decided on a Friday - 12 or 19 or 26 October. All are free at the minute.
The next best day would probably be a Tuesday.
We agreed a price of ?40, with reductions for early booking. As Richard
pointed out, though, the real price is the cost of someone being away from
work for a day.
We decided this would be too complex to do on the day, and that giving out
Knoppix or Ubuntu CDs would be better. This could be backed up by having
running demos of booting a LiveCD on various pieces of hardware.
We agreed this would be too complex to run, so that idea is shelved.
Most of the meeting was taken up with discussing the programme. The key
question was "who is this aimed at?" Most SMEs will not have a resident
geek/tech bod, so going into various pieces of software in depth may not make
much sense to them. On the other hand, just telling people this sort of
software is available without showing them how to set it up or seeing it in
use is of limited practical benefit to them. It's a question of what we can
explain sensibly in a given time to a given level of expertise.
It's difficult to square this circle, and one suggestion was to keep the
business track fairly general, and have a separate technical track for people
who want to get into the details a bit more. One track might then be shared
(a half-track) between social enterprises and education. The problem about
expanding too much is that the possible costs for speakers also rise.
Another issue that came up was the need to have people up to speed on teh
jargon (eg proprietary, GPL, FSF, distro, repository, etc). Rather than have
a presentation on all this, the best thing would probably be to have
shortish, simple factsheets on the website (along the lines of the briefing
sheet series being developed by Richard Smedley's company, M6-IT), so that
people can at least get used to the terminology beforehand.
Another point was that for consistency it might be better to choose one distro
for all the presentations, so that newcomers don't get too twitchy when they
see four or five different-looking desktops. The problem here is, which
distro do you choose? The earlier point, that we should standardise on
Ubuntu+GNOME and openSUSE+KDE, may be valid, and that would allow both to be
used in the presentations - that shouldn't be too confusing for the average
viewer.
=Plenary session=
- Introduction
- Keynote - Perhaps someone from FSFE? Covering what free software is, why
software patents are bad for business, why open formats are vital, how the
flexibility of free software gives a competitive edge and feeds into
bottom-line benefits, etc
=Business track=
- Getting your bearings - practical implications of the free software outlook,
security implications, etc
- Basic office tasks - email, web, word-processing
- Collaboration in the office - using groupware and other CRM software, wikis,
etc
- Remote working - using a VPN to take your office with you
- Expanding your website - using content management systems, e-commerce, etc
- Business necessities - payroll (eg Thyme), accounts (eg GnuCash)
- Tying it together - using a Linux file/print/proxy/mail server in a
non-Linux network
=Technical track=
- Start here - installing and running Linux
- Setting up Linux file/print/proxy/mail servers (several sessions)
- Setting up a VPN
- Linux for network security (Gordon Ross?)
- Support - an overview of sources
=Social enterprise half-track=
- The ethics of free software - social responsibility, social exclusion, etc
- Moving to free software - what is involved, where are the pressure points
- Perhaps repeat some of the subjects from the business track, boiled down a
bit? And/or offer hands-on experience in teh computer club?
=Education half-track= (actually, this looks more like a full track)
- Flexibility and savings - a case-study (Powys? Handsworth?)
- Not more IT! - Linux for beginners for a teacher's viewpoint (Phil Thane?)
- Overview of relevant software - software specifically aimed at, or useable
in, the curriculum, and management software like Schooltool (giving existing
shortcomings where appropriate)
- Distance learning - Moodle
- INGOTS - an open IT qualification
- Taming your library - Koha
- Out of the Box - Karoshi
=Welsh track= (or perhaps a half-track?)
- Why free software supports Welsh better
- Doing it yourself - how to convert a program to Welsh (KD?)
- Office software in Welsh (Agored?)
- The cutting edge - lexical resources, text-to-speech, etc (Canolfan Bedwyr?)
=Plenary session=
- Q&A session with panel
- Wrap-up
Any comments on the above would be very welcome.
I was also wondering about whether we should look for a VIP to launch the
event (ie before the keynote). The question is, who?
We decided that streaming would be too difficult and expensive (unless we
could partner with a college multimedia unit where the students wanted/needed
to do a practical), but it would be worth trying to record at least some of
the presentations for delivery via the website later. It was also suggested
that we circulate a Flickr tag, so that if people want to upload pictures,
they can be grouped in one place.
I think that's about all! The next step, after any further suggestions, would
be to start working up a website, as a basis for further planning. The draft
timetable afterwards would be: website and approaches to speakers by
end-April; presentation summaries and approaches to potential partner
organisations by end-May; approaches to potential sponsors by end-June; first
publicity ads and opening of registrations in July; presentation drafts by
end-August; further monthly publicity August-September; finalise event
details by end-September; weekly publicity in October.
Any offers of (non-financial) help are always welcome, eg help on the day, a
presentation you could give, someone you know who might be a partner or
sponsor, contacts in the media, etc etc.
Carwyn Edwards
2007-04-06 12:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Donnelly
Sorry for the delay in posting these - some home stuff intervened.
[lots of stuff about the meeting]

I'll ask around at work (University of Wales, Bangor) to see if we can
help in any way with this. Technium Cast (techniumcast.com) and Intec
also have some people that might be interested. IT Wales (itwales.com)
is another group that will likely have interested parties.

I think it's important to choose the message you want to convey to the
attendees carefully. For example:

"Solve your business computing needs affordably and sustainably using
adaptable (versatile?) free (GPL) software"

I'd be concerned about two words in this sentence: "free" and "GPL". "Free" is a double edged sword from what I've seen in businesses perception. People like free things, but tend to associate low value to things that are given away free. I've also had people argue that free is also often associated with poor customer support. I think I'd suggest Open Source instead of "free". It isn't free, there is value and cost to it. GPL on the other hand is too specific, much of the software that non technical people will associate with Open Source isn't GPL.

My suggestions:

"Solve your business computing needs affordably and sustainably using Open Source Software"

"How Open Source and Open Standards can help your Business"

.. having said all that, "FREE SOFTWARE!" will get people's attention.

Carwyn
Kevin Donnelly
2007-04-06 17:04:29 UTC
Permalink
(portmanteau reply)
Post by Eion MacDonald
Will you cover this in your applications point.
(VAT accounting, it is major reason I still dual boot to Windows!)
Yes, this certainly needs to be addressed before we offer solutions. GnuCash,
however,
does seem to handle VAT, eg
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2005-April/013417.html
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2005-November/015074.html
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2005-March/013233.html
These are quite old, so it may even have improved since then - I haven't
looked at the app for some time. We might have to do a briefing note on the
website walking people through using GnuCash for VAT to make it a more viable
alternative.
Post by Eion MacDonald
I would be interested to speak to
someone about Thyme and GnuCash - I always find its the apps that make
people want the OS - not the other way around!
Gnucash - http://www.gnucash.org
Thyme - http://www.clocksoft.co.uk
Post by Eion MacDonald
Anyway, best of luck, and I would be happy to help out with putting
you in touch with people who can help with publicity in Flintshire.
Thanks - can you send me the details off-list?
Post by Eion MacDonald
I'll ask around at work (University of Wales, Bangor) to see if we can
help in any way with this. Technium Cast (techniumcast.com) and Intec
also have some people that might be interested. IT Wales (itwales.com)
is another group that will likely have interested parties.
Much appreciated - please keep us informed of developments. If you have any
specific entrees to Cast or ITWales, perhaps we could use them when the
planning is a bit farther forward?
Post by Eion MacDonald
I'd be concerned about two words in this sentence: "free" and "GPL". "Free"
is a double edged sword from what I've seen in businesses perception.
People like free things, but tend to associate low value to things that are
given away free. I've also had people argue that free is also often
associated with poor customer support. I think I'd suggest Open Source
instead of "free". It isn't free, there is value and cost to it.
Yes, this is a valid concern. In fact, it is exactly the argument made by
ESR, Bruce Perens, etc when they generated the term "open-source". The basic
problem is that English uses the same word for two entirely separate things,
unlike French (libre/gratuit) or Welsh (rhydd/am ddim) - as Richard noted -
and there's not much that can be done about this. "FLOSS" is confusing
unless you already know what it stands for, "open-source" may evoke the
response "I wouldn't understand a program's code, so why should I value
that?" (and is also subject to term creep from people using "open" to mean
"industry-standard", ie proprietary, or "shared source"), "libre software"
sounds slightly posey, "liberated software" sounds a bit agitprop, and so on.

So I think we have to bite the bullet and use "free software", but with
something to suggest that it's not your usual "free". "Free as in freedom,
not free as in beer" is a bit long, and in most cases the cosftware is free
as in beer as well, so what I've taken to doing is just "free (GPL)". Others
may disagree, but to me this subsets "free" and also draws attention to the
license, which is as it should be.

Whether this is the right thing to use for the event, I don't know. I'm a
little wary of the term "open-source" (though I wasn't 3-4 years ago), because
it's becoming a bit of a moveable feast - "as open as we, the producers, want
to make it" - instead of, as the GPL does, emphasising the consumers (who,
after all, outnumber software producers by many times to one, and whose
businesses are in aggregate far more important to the economy). I also doubt
whether it's that much more comprehensible/appealing to likely participants
at the event, as Richard also noted.

I take the point about the negative connotations of "free". But people often
want to have it both ways - "Great, this software is free! But I'll probably
need support? What, you mean I have to pay for that? Why isn't it free as
well?" I'm not sure how many proprietary apps come with free support now -
there were quite a few in the 80s (when your word-processor might cost you
?800), but not many now, I suspect. Most FLOSS providers (eg RedHat, SUSE,
Canonical, Sun, MySQL AB, Sugar, etc etc) offer full support - at a price.
So the issue is really one of whether you pay (up front, in buying the app),
or only as you need it (in time or money) - free software at least offers you
one more degree of freedom than the traditional software model. I think that
setting out this slightly different way of looking at or evaluating software
costs might actually be one of the benefits of the event.
Post by Eion MacDonald
GPL on the
other hand is too specific, much of the software that non technical people
will associate with Open Source isn't GPL.
Most FLOSS is in fact under the GPL rather than an OSS license - Perl, PHP,
MySQL, Linux, etc. The outstanding contrary case is Apache. I read
somewhere that of all the FLOSS software in existence, something like 75% of
it is under the GPL. Granted, a large amount of that will be sleepware, but
virtually all the big FLOSS software projects are GPL, and many individual
developers (particularly in Europe) will in fact refuse to contribute to
software that is *not* under the GPL (because software under OSS licenses
like the BSD one can be "kidnapped" and taken proprietary, whereupon their
code is used by someone else for that individual's/company's personal gain,
instead of for the public good, as the coder intended).
Post by Eion MacDonald
"Solve your business computing needs affordably and sustainably using Open
Source Software"
"How Open Source and Open Standards can help your Business"
I agree the "open standards" point might be a good one, although that is
already subject to term creep (eg Microsoft's Office Open XML, which uses the
word "open", but is really nothing of the sort, since it allows you to use
OOXML as a wrapper for proprietary blobs).
Post by Eion MacDonald
I'm afraid talking about ``open source'' is far more baffling for
non-technical people than talking about freedom. Besides, a lot
of software sold as ``open source'' is not free at all :-(
Indeed. Just to take an example relevant to business (since Huw wasn't quite
convinced :-)), Sugar CRM sourcecode is available, but the Professional
version's license agreement says:
===
Company shall not, directly or indirectly: (i) sublicense, resell, rent,
lease, distribute, market, commercialize or otherwise transfer rights or
usage to: (a) the Software, (b) any modified version or derivative work of
the Software created by the Company or for the Company, or (c) any software,
either modified or not, licensed under a SugarCRM Public License, for any
purpose including timesharing or service bureau purposes; (ii) remove or
alter any copyright, trademark or proprietary notice in the Software; (iii)
transfer, use or export the Software in violation of any laws or regulations
of any government or governmental agency; (iv) use or run on any of Company's
hardware, or have deployed for use, any copy or version of the SugarCRM open
source version of the Software; (v) reverse engineer, decompile or modify any
encrypted or encoded portion of the Software; (vi) bifurcate the source code
for any SugarCRM open source licensed products into a separately maintained
source code repository so that development done on the original code requires
manual work to be transferred to the forked software or so that the forked
software starts to have features not present in the original software.
===

Not much you can do with that version of the software except use it! I
actually think that negotiating your way around the thickets of various OSS
licenses is more difficult than having a straight proprietary license :-)
GPL is easiest of all .....
Post by Eion MacDonald
Access to source code is only part of freedom - being able to run
the software wherever you like, for whatever purpose you like, is
very important when it comes to the crippling pain of keeping
track of licences across a large organisation. And in schools,
being able to give OOo discs to the kids would put an end to
teachers' tacit encouragement to the pupils obtaining illegal
copies of MS Office (and actually passing out discs of illegally-
copied proprietary software in a couple of cases I know of at a
local school).
This is a very good point - "free software encourages ethical behaviour
shock!" - and of course there have been instances (Birmingham rings a bell)
where LEAs have been fined for running unlicensed software.
Post by Eion MacDonald
``What is software freedom? Find out how...'' and then something
about sustainability, GNU/Linux, growing your business, etc.
Yes, attractive. "Flourish - choose freedom! Find out how GNU software and
Linux can offer you bottom-line savings and help you grow your business
sustainably." That would meet Carwyn's point about avoiding the word "free".
Post by Eion MacDonald
There are a lot of definitions of Free and Open Source.
Open-source, yes - that's part of the problem. Free, no - if it's under the
GPL, it's free, if not, it's not.
Post by Eion MacDonald
Debian decided that the FSF's GFDL can be non-free.
Well, what *some* Debian people objected to was that the documentation writer
could include conditions about particular changes, retaining his/her name,
etc. The GPL allows you to change anything (apart from the copyright) in the
source-code, and they felt that the same should apply to documentation.
Since the GFDL allowed for something else, they concluded it was not "free"
under the terms of the GPL. I suppose this is logical, if you happen to
agree with their "purist" stance. :-)
Post by Eion MacDonald
Just been talking to my work colleague about this thread and it looks
like that I can source finance for a OSS event in rural (read objective
one) Wales.
These North Wales FLOSS events are like buses - you wait ages for one, and
then three show up at once (c.f. Oli's)!

Do you mean that you have money in hand, or can get it fairly certainly, or
that you would still need to bid for it?
Post by Eion MacDonald
What we (www.cefngwlad.org) would like to see if an event demonstrating
how OSS can benefit rural businesses and organisations. That is of
course a very 'open' brief as far as the technology goes !! :-)
I agree. But do you have any info on the size/number of rural businesses, and
what sort of software they might find useful? Most agribusinesses (ie a
farmer with a sideline) might be covered by info on a router, and OpenOffice,
Firefox and GnuCash. Given your audience, it might also be relevant that
"non-core" apps like GnuCash can easily be translated to Welsh. Do you have
anything specific in mind? And of course, could rural stuff be a track in a
more comprehensive event? Getting a critical mass might be better than
having smaller events.
Post by Eion MacDonald
Would there be any objections to holding such an event in CAST in
Bangor? Convenient enough for most list members and many of the 'target
audience'.
Will Cast do a good deal on the hire, and would they do the same good deal for
a larger event? :-) If so, worth considering. Although Oli's point about
moving farther down the coast is a valid one.
Post by Eion MacDonald
As I was mentioning earlier, I have been given the go ahead to find
content for an IT event to be held in Flintshire in October.
Assuming your content is just one strand of a wider thing, I suppose there's
not much you can do under the "critical mass -> combine resources" heading.
What I'm interested in is timing - do you know what date you are looking at
in October (your earlier posts referred only to "autumn")? It would be
ludicrous to have two FLOSS events on the same day - do any of the dates I
suggested in my earlier post clash with yours?
--
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.klebran.org.uk - Gwirydd gramadeg rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
Kevin Donnelly
2007-04-06 18:57:27 UTC
Permalink
To them, the differences of the
systems mentioned above are as relevant to using a HB pencil or a Bic
pen while doing the accounts!
Until, of course, the BSA informs them of an upcoming software audit :-)
Our IT day is on the 4th of October in Theatr Clwyd.
Fine.
--
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.klebran.org.uk - Gwirydd gramadeg rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
Eion MacDonald
2007-04-06 20:07:06 UTC
Permalink
VAT , links only intelligible to an accountant.
VAT set up example in GnuCash needs a typical complete but small set of
accounts and ability to split transaction and allocate automatically
not manually.

Regards
Eion MacDonald (***@btinternet.com)
Tel. +44 (0) 1925762873

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Post by Kevin Donnelly
(portmanteau reply)
Post by Eion MacDonald
Will you cover this in your applications point.
(VAT accounting, it is major reason I still dual boot to Windows!)
Yes, this certainly needs to be addressed before we offer solutions. GnuCash,
however,
does seem to handle VAT, eg
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2005-April/013417.html
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2005-November/015074.html
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2005-March/013233.html
These are quite old, so it may even have improved since then - I haven't
looked at the app for some time. We might have to do a briefing note on the
website walking people through using GnuCash for VAT to make it a more viable
alternative.
Post by Eion MacDonald
I would be interested to speak to
someone about Thyme and GnuCash - I always find its the apps that make
people want the OS - not the other way around!
Gnucash - http://www.gnucash.org
Thyme - http://www.clocksoft.co.uk
Kevin Donnelly
2007-04-07 01:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eion MacDonald
VAT set up example in GnuCash needs a typical complete but small set of
accounts and ability to split transaction and allocate automatically
not manually.
Maybe we could contribute anything we come up with in the briefing sheet to
the project. It would be even better if we could get a tame accountant to
run through things too. So far as I can see, "manually" just means you enter
the base price and the VAT separately - a bit annoying, but not too bad.
--
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.klebran.org.uk - Gwirydd gramadeg rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
Richard Smedley
2007-04-16 13:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Donnelly
We decided on a Friday - 12 or 19 or 26 October. All are free at the
minute. The next best day would probably be a Tuesday.
The Plone Conference 2007 will be in early Oct, this probably
puts the 12th out for me.
Oct 26 is the day after LinuxWorldExpo, so some of us would have
a bit of a sprint back from Llundain to Llandudno.

iow, +1 for 19th Oct :-)

- Richard
--
Richard Smedley, ***@m6-it.org
Technical Director, www.M6-IT.org
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Kevin Donnelly
2007-04-17 14:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smedley
The Plone Conference 2007 will be in early Oct, this probably
puts the 12th out for me.
Oct 26 is the day after LinuxWorldExpo, so some of us would have
a bit of a sprint back from Llundain to Llandudno.
iow, +1 for 19th Oct :-)
OK - I was trying to keep it as far away from Oli's event as possible, but
19th should be OK for that.
--
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg
www.klebran.org.uk - Gwirydd gramadeg rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg
Richard Smedley
2007-04-17 15:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Donnelly
Post by Richard Smedley
The Plone Conference 2007 will be in early Oct, this probably
puts the 12th out for me.
Oct 26 is the day after LinuxWorldExpo, so some of us would have
a bit of a sprint back from Llundain to Llandudno.
iow, +1 for 19th Oct :-)
OK - I was trying to keep it as far away from Oli's event as
possible, but 19th should be OK for that.
The 26th is not impossible, just remember that some
of us will be in London the day before, so won't be
able to help set up on the 25th.
If this is not a problem, I can be there on the morning
of the 26th.

Good point about not being too close to the other
event.

- Richard
--
Richard Smedley, ***@m6-it.org
Technical Director, www.M6-IT.org
M6-IT CIC +44 (0)779 456 07 14

Sustainable Third Sector IT solutions. PRINCE2[TM] Project Management
Web services * Back-ups * Support * Training & Certification * E-Mail


M6-IT is a Community Interest Company, limited by guarantee.
Registered in England & Wales, Registration No: 6040154
11 St Marks Road, Stourbridge, West Midlands, DY9 7DT

Northern Office: 4, Hollins Green, Bradwall, Cheshire, CW10 0LA.

Welsh office/Swyddfa Gogledd Cymru: e-mail / e-bost - ***@m6-it.org
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